The President-elect, Muhammadu
Buhari, has acknowledged the fact that expectations of Nigerians from
him are very high. How do you think he can meet these within the next
four years?
Whenever there is a change in government in a democracy, whether in
Nigeria or anywhere else, normally the expectation tends to rise. It is
not unexpected in Nigeria, particularly when this is the first time in
our democratic process that we are witnessing a smooth change in
government from the ruling party to an opposition. Therefore,
expectations are much higher within the normal circumstance of change.
After several shots at the presidency, will you still present yourself if the opportunity avails itself again?
It
is quite too early for such a question. We are in a transition process.
We have not even formed the next government. You are asking me whether I
will like to run again or not. I think it is just too early. My concern
is to make sure that the transition process is smooth and complete and a
new government is formed because it is the party that I belong to that
is coming in. My dream for Nigeria is always that we can, from time to
time, change government so that there can be competition among parties
and that competition will bring about, perhaps more development and
progress in the country. I think that is my most important concern now
rather than thinking of whether I’m going to run again or not.
Why is it taking your party so long to decide on zoning?
I think that is one fundamental thing Nigerians tend to forget. There is
no zoning in the constitution of the All Progressives Congress. In the
true sense of it, there is no zoning. But we also know that this country
is between North and South, Muslims and Christians. It is a
multi-ethnic, multi-religious country; hence there is the need for
balance of government appointments. We are not unaware of that. In the
strictest sense of it, there is no zoning in the APC’s constitution. It
is in the Peoples Democratic Party’s constitution and it has a long
history. Those of us who were in the Constitutional Conference of 1994,
1995 actually initiated it.
What are the pitfalls the APC must avoid to steer clear of the fate that befell the PDP?
There are quite a few and fundamental ones that I will urge the APC
government to avoid. Firstly, the political party should be allowed to
freely operate on its own so that the issues of governors and the
president being the leaders of the party and also the leader of
government can be separated. It is only when one does that that internal
democracy is allowed to thrive within the political party. Internal
democracy is the building block, but when one mixes the two (leadership
of political party and that of government), then one will find oneself
where the PDP has found itself in the last 16 years.
Secondly, the governors and the president must be focused on key
fundamental issues of governance. If they want to make an impact, for
instance, in the first 100 days, three months, six months, as the case
may be, they have to pick up certain key areas and also let Nigerians
know that in the first 100 days, this is what you should expect from us.
For instance, in my policy document, when I was running for the
presidency, I said in the first 100 days, this is what you should expect
from me. I think it will be necessary for the government to tell
Nigerians that this is what you should expect from us in the first 100
days and so on.
What is your take on the prediction that the APC would be torn apart by the struggle for positions in the incoming government?
I don’t believe so. I think we have come across a number of challenges
since the formation of the APC. I believe that government is not
essentially an employer of labour. It should create the necessary
environment for the private sector to create jobs. I think there is too
much emphasis on government employment or government patronage in this
country. This is because various levels of governance, whether local
government or state, don’t function well. In other words, it is the
failure of our institutions. If one goes to certain countries, one
doesn’t find the president even having one visitor.
For instance, I have visited my brother and friend, Jacob Zuma, several
times. You don’t find even one single individual sitting with him and he
goes out like a normal person because the institutions are working. The
local councils are working. The provincial governments are working,
everything is okay. Thus, whatever one is looking for at any level of
one’s life is being provided for by the institution that is established
to do it. Therefore, one doesn’t need the big man at the top. But
unfortunately in this country, all our institutions are not working.
They have been undermined. The constitution is very clear on that. But
because the implementers of the constitution have not implemented the
constitution as they should, the institutions are failing or have
failed. Therefore, everybody looks up to the president to solve all the
problems. No, that should not be. That is why we have local and state
governments. Hence, I think we have to strengthen our institutions and
make sure that they deliver services to their respective people.
The President-elect, like many other Nigerians, believes
that corruption has reached an intolerable level in this country. Do you
share the view that he (the President-elect) cannot achieve much in
tackling the menace as he has promised because he is surrounded by many
politicians that are also accused of being corrupt?
I think it takes political will to fight corruption. I have sat down
with the President-elect and I believe he has the political will to do
that. He told me clearly that anybody who is corrupt should not expect
any appointment from his government and I agree with him. I also told
him that if he really wants to cleanse this society, he should not make
the mistake of trying to appoint anybody who is alleged or perceived to
be corrupt and he can do that by making sure he gets the necessary
information from the relevant government agencies. So, I believe he has
the political will.
Apart from appointment, what other specific areas must he explore to ensure that corruption is curbed?
Corruption has become so endemic in this country that any level of the
society one goes to, it is present. Even in my house, my wife is always
fighting with the drivers; fighting with the mechanic; fighting with the
cooks. When she gives them money to do this or that, they do fake
receipts and all that. Therefore, corruption is so endemic in the
society, even in households. But then, if the political leadership
provides the direction, the leadership and the will to fight corruption,
one will find out that gradually we will be eliminating corruption and
we will bring it to a minimal level. There is no society where there is
no corruption, even in the advanced democracies there is corruption, but
at a very minimal level. It is not threatening their progress as a
country.
Still on corruption, you once said that you were one of the
most investigated Nigerians. If the President-elect says, again, he is
going to investigate the cases against you, will you be afraid or
worried?
I’m not worried. You can investigate me. But you know most of my cases
have ended up in the court up to the Supreme Court and the apex court
has ruled on them. Thus, for you to reopen a case that has been closed
by the Supreme Court … but I am ready to be investigated.
Before the general elections, President Goodluck Jonathan
visited you. The picture that was being painted out there by his
loyalists was that you gave a tacit approval for his second term bid.
Can you use this opportunity to tell Nigerians what really transpired
between the two of you at that meeting?
I have told Nigerians what transpired between the two of us. He wanted
me to come back to the PDP and I said I was not coming back.
There is this story that the PDP is being repositioned and
that the party is reaching out to you and Governor Rabiu Kwankwaso of
Kano State. If the party leaders reach out to you, will you return to
the PDP?
Nobody has reached out to me yet. And for the question of if I would go
back or not; how many people will the President go to their houses to
say, ‘This is the favour I want’ and they will look at him in the face
and say, ‘No, we are not going back?’ How many in this country will do
that?
Your former boss, ex-President Olusegun Obasanjo, said so
many not-too-complimentary things about you in his latest book, ‘My
Watch’. Have you both met since then?
You know, really, I don’t give a damn (about) what Obasanjo says about me.
You talked about South Africa working. Do you think that the
concentration of power in the hands of the Federal Government is
undermining the development of the country?
There seemed to be better service delivery by the government during the
period we ran the regional government system. I had said that in my
paper to the last Constitution Conference. I wrote a very comprehensive
paper on that. I believe that the powers of the Federal Government are
too many and there should be power devolution to the state and local
governments.
Still talking about former President Obasanjo, do you think
he scuttled the best chance you ever had to lead this country as
president?
I don’t think so. How? When?
Your second term with him as Vice-President between 2003 and
2007 was stormy and he did everything to stop you from succeeding him
as a result of which you left the PDP for the then Action Congress.
As far as I am concerned, Obasanjo may believe that he scuttled my
presidential ambition, but I believe it is about God. If God says I will
be president, I will be president; if He says I will not be president, I
will not be president. Let’s forget about Obasanjo.
You chaired the privatisation committee and you did a lot in
various sectors, including telecommunication, by laying the foundation.
I can’t remember you handling that of power…
I refused to handle that of power.
Why did you refuse?
I refused to because I had a fundamental disagreement with the President
(Obasanjo). He believed we should go left; I believed we should go
right. He said I should become the chairman of the committee, I
accepted. He inaugurated it, but I never sat. I allowed the Minister of
Power then, Liyel Imoke, to sit. You can see that I was right because I
told him what we needed was short-term, medium-term and long-term
solutions to the power sector reform. He wanted to go for the long-term
and up till now, we are not yet there. If we had adopted the short- term
and medium-term solutions to our power problem, we would have been
self-sufficient by 2005; even before we left office; because that
strategy was planned for small and medium power stations in various
parts of the country. We had even harvested international bids: people,
who were prepared to come and invest $500m, $250m to set up small and
medium -size power stations.
By now, we would have been self-sufficient, but he said, ‘Oh, we must go
gas’ and I said, ‘Gas? There is a problem. It’s long term; a lot of
investments. There is instability in the region (Niger Delta). You must
bring peace, before they would allow you to evacuate the gas. There is
the issue of building the gas infrastructure, which takes a longer time
and also a lot of investments and that I don’t see us even getting there
in the next 10 years.’ But he said, ‘No, this is the way I want. We
must go that way.’ I said, ‘Ok, fine, you are the President,’ and I
declined to sit on the power committee till we left office. That is why
when there was an investigation by the National Assembly; nobody invited
me because my name was never there. Contracts were awarded and paid 100
per cent upfront; people disappeared with the money, and even stole,
yet no power. I stand by this: We must have short- term, medium-term and
long- term power solutions.
Is that why you recently called for the reversal of privatisation of the Power Holding Company of Nigeria?
How does one begin to privatise distribution? Distribution of what?
There is no power. First of all, one should start with generation. When
one starts with generation, then transmission follows. After there is
enough power, then one knows that one has the capacity to transmit and
then one can now distribute. But they started with distribution,
distribution of water or what? I mean, one can’t do that. Now we have
privatised distribution, where is the power to distribute? No power! And
they borrowed money from the banks to go and set up these companies.
They said the Federal Government gave billions to encourage the
privatisation; now they are not recouping the money. They have huge
loans. There will be interest and there is no power to distribute. They
have also increased electricity tariff when there is no power.
Some people have called for the removal of fuel subsidy
while oil price in the global market has crashed. Are you in support of
this and what must the incoming government do to diversify the economy
because almost all the states have problems?
First and foremost, I was in charge of deregulation and we had started.
If we had continued our programme, we would have finished deregulation
before our government left office. But unfortunately we did not. Thus,
as far as I am concerned, I’m in for full and total deregulation in the
downstream oil sector. Let the market determine (the economic needs).
Believe me, we are complaining now because there is subsidy. By the time
one deregulates and opens the market, everybody is free to bring in
these finished products and sell, there will be competition and the
prices are even likely to come down. I am for deregulation. There is no
doubt about it because at the end of the day, I think that is the best
for the country.
On the issue of the prices of petroleum, I don’t think $50 is too low
because when we came in, how much was it? $20? Yet we were able to
implement our programmes. Therefore, it is all an issue of planning. Of
course, governments, both military and democratic, over the years have
always been talking of diversifying the economy, but no government has
really focused on the issue of diversifying the economy so that the
reliance on oil can be reduced substantially. When we go back to the
Gross Domestic Product, we know oil is just about 15 to 20 per cent; the
rest is either services or this and that. But then, I believe the
diversification of the economy would have been much better for us if we
had done it a long time ago.
Do you have any pact with the APC leadership or the
President-elect for you to nominate people into positions in the
incoming government and what roles will you play in the next
administration?
There is no pact. Essentially, I am a party man. Therefore, I will do
wholeheartedly whatever the party decides I should do or that I should
help in doing.
At the APC primaries you were expected to win, but you were in a distant third position.
No! With 20 votes.
But did you suspect any conspiracy?
As far as I am concerned, the APC primaries have become history. We have
gone beyond that. I have endorsed the outcome of the primaries. I said
the process was successful. That is it.
Talking about forming the next government, do you support
reducing the cost of governance by cutting down the size of government
in the country?
Yes, I believe that particularly, the Federal Government should cut down
on cost. If we devolve more powers to the state and local governments,
obviously we don’t need a very unwieldy government structure as we have.
There is too much at the federal level – too much to do.
How many ministers should the President-elect appoint? The
constitution says a minister must come from each state of the
federation?
One cannot avoid constitutional provisions. One has to be law-abiding so
he (the President-elect) has to go by the constitution as far as the
issue of ministerial positions is concerned.
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